343. Creating a Competitive Edge: Avva Thach on the Power of Decisive Leadership

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Ava Thatch, such a pleasure to see you.

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I'm so excited to be finally talking to you.

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I've been wanting to interview you for quite a while.

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How's everything going?

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wonderful.

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I just came back from my trip in Asia, seeing my family and it's such a wonderful feeling.

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It's like really totally recharged me.

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That's great.

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I mean, you got to do that.

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You got to do that.

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And you know, because for the audience, Ava is a leadership expert.

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I'm looking at your bio here, because I don't read the whole bio.

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I just kind of pull snippets out.

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So you're a Vietnamese -born American international bestselling author, TEDx speaker,
business coach, strategic advisor, impacts global businesses across 90 countries.

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Wow.

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And so basically you have a management consulting and you're the brain behind IAVA .AI,
which is pretty cool.

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And we're going to go into that.

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But you have a new book that is out, which is called Decisive Leadership, Transforming
Complex Challenges into Competitive Edge.

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And so excited to be having this conversation with you today.

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yeah, lots to talk about.

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Lots to talk about.

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Thanks, Sandy.

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Yeah, so before we go into all of this, can you just give the audience just a brief, know,
how did you get to where you are today?

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Because I love hearing everybody's stories.

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Yes, so I was born in Vietnam and when I was 16, I was always thinking like, how do I grow
myself?

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Like, there's going to be something more exciting.

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And, you know, in Vietnam, we expect to go to university, get married and do all those
things.

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But I was just thinking like, what would that look like to be abroad?

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But I didn't even speak any English at that point.

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So somehow, you know, I made it happen.

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I studied with people from all over the world and it was hard.

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I didn't know anything.

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I mean, I know how to say hello and it was a really tough journey, but because all of that
actually it get me to understand my friends from different countries better.

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And slowly I just wanted to, you know, to, continue with the idea of how do we build a

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a more sustainable future if we don't work together.

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And now our teams, technology teams, we work with people from all over the world.

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And that really aligns very well with me.

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And I think the second thing is that even from the early age, my aunt, like at some point
I was studying abroad and then she came, I came home and she said, you know what?

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Ava, like what's so important is actually your roots.

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So don't ever forget that.

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But as she was saying that, like, I already felt a sense of like, my body was shivering.

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Like I felt a sense of belonging.

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That's something that you can't describe it.

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You just know it.

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You just feel it when you're with your folks because they know you, they love you.

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There's just like the natural love that they have for you.

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And I didn't have to say anything, but I got it, you know?

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And that is some kind of the culture that, that gift to me that I had brought it with me.

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So later on, when I'm being in the leadership positions, I'm bringing that sense of
belonging.

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I'm helping teams to feel that sense of belonging.

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And also.

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It's helped me to feel a sense of belonging when things get tough, when things get tough
too.

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So there we go.

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This is where I am.

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You know, we're in the age of technology.

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solving complex problems.

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And I mean, we can't just sense, we can't just solve it in a linear way sometimes.

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So that's, I'm bringing all of who I am, my roots, everything together.

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I love it, I love it.

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So before you started your management consulting firm, you were instrumental in digital
transformations worth over 21 billion and as a growth catalyst for startups, large

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enterprises.

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So talk about some of the corporate achievements that you had before you started your
consulting firm.

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Well, I was working with a really large financial services company and we didn't even
know, like it was big, like there was a huge transformation happening.

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But when I came in, it was just like, we didn't have any process happening.

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We didn't really have a team laid out.

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And, you know, I just realized that we can make a huge difference not having to be

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way high up in the change when we first starting out, it was really about like, okay, what
can I do on my end?

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So it's just about what kind of process can we create?

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So then I was talking with my supervisor at that point.

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was a VP in the bank and it turned out we didn't have a process.

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So I just sit down and like, what about this process?

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What about we will run with it?

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And then, I think a combination of

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continuous learning on my own.

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I was just very curious, like, how does this work?

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How does it work?

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And I start to go out and talk with people from different department within huge financial
institution and trying to get to know like what they do.

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It's almost like doing an interview.

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And then I'm starting to get connected dot.

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Then I'm like, okay, here's the process.

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And then it was very complicated because, you know, we had to deal with paying from all
over the world, working with different regular.

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regulations and it's like involved in multiple parts.

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But it's all about working with people together and working with technologists.

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We can create customized in -house platforms so we can track very complicated funds.

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Especially we wanted to make sure we do it in a seamless way so everyone can, all this
business can happen as usual.

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All of that really helped me, you know, and then suddenly, you know, my supervisor come
like, we are so busy today.

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Can you start training the team?

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Because, you know, the team now start to grow.

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I'm like, okay, no problem.

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And then I'm starting to train them.

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And then I start noticing like, I was creating a new process, training new team members,
creating reports to senior leaders and making sure I'm working and resolving any urgent.

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matters with international banks.

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So that's, you know, calling like 60 banks, like in a week, talking with them.

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But all of that, it was just really fascinating.

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It just made me realize that, I am actually a nonlinear person.

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So I just have to own it.

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And, you know, sometimes it requires you to solve problems in a very nonlinear way, but
it's, you know, it's actually help and it's very helpful.

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And that's why I decided to go further.

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you know, a study further innovation strategy, agile project management in the Bay Area at
Stanford and design thinking, all of this like really fits right in with who I am.

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So that's just kind of a progression.

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And then I work with startups and I mean, I can tell you in a funny story how I started to
work with some of the international government, but.

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So thank you for sharing all of that.

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I appreciate it.

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I know that, especially when you come from like the big, you were at a, sounds like an
international bank, a huge financial services company.

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What was that transition like for you?

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And how did you make that pivot?

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And what was the impetus that drove you to make that change, to leave and start your own
company?

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Yeah.

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Well, I didn't really pivot right there and then, but every step of the way, you know, I
moved to the Bay Area and it was a huge, huge change.

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You know, I was in Boston and I thought, Boston is amazing.

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How can we, how can we have anywhere else?

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Like I didn't have, I didn't need to have a car.

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can, I could literally go everywhere.

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I seen my friends, my cool legs, like, and it was wonderful.

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And then I went to the Bay Area.

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And I was like, this is amazing too.

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Like I didn't realize that.

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So every city just bring new flavor and you know, it's just some time, you know, I talked
with my friend.

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told her, like if we take a course or we go for a yoga retreat, and I just told her like,
this is probably the most amazing experience I've had.

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And she's like, how did you know we have not experienced further?

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I'm like, yeah, this is it.

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And sure enough, you know, later on, there's going to be other experience that is
unfolding.

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So.

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Just letting those experience unfolding and taking the path to it.

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mean, really, I was really captivated with that design thinking concept and how do we
bring in more of that center, you know, human centric into everything we do in

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transformation.

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It's in the end, it's all about empathy and how do we really creating that sense of
belonging, solving people's pain.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's really what it comes down to on so many different levels, for
sure.

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So what is IAVA .AI?

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Is this new?

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Because I don't know, because the last time we talked on our AI conference and then we had
a call after that, I don't recall if you had it or maybe it was still in the works, but

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yeah.

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yeah, well, I mean, it is my website and it is, you know, representing my AVA tech
management consulting.

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So I worked with Big Four consulting before and IT consulting before.

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And I just, you know, thought this is where I'm, you know, this is where I'm bringing in
my unique sense as a coach, as

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As a consultant and as a strategic advisor and the world's moving so fast.

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So I'm bringing in three pillar helping, you know, executives and leaders to really solve
complex problems using improving process, you know, using strategy, AI strategy, and then

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also working with the team to really train them, to really bring that to life.

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And sometime coaching is.

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in every step of the way.

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People don't really talk about it, but in consulting, actually, there's a lot of coaching
because we do a lot of co -creation, partner with our clients that it's impossible to

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decide for our clients.

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We don't even know what it is that they want sometimes.

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Sometimes they say they want one thing, but throughout the process of brainstorming, that
working together, that co -creating together, that's where we know.

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So iava .ai is really representing that.

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technology, that AI integration, service that I'm doing, customized consulting, but also
bringing in that mindset of co -creations, coaching, and facilitation, as well as training

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and development.

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You're one busy woman.

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Wow.

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as I keep going through your bio that I have over here, I was like, my gosh, you've also,
we're gonna get to your book soon.

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So we're gonna talk about the book in a minute, but you host the Ava Innovate with
Authenticity podcast.

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You've completed 500 hours of yoga therapy and you're a doctoral candidate.

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and lecturer in strategy, innovation, AI and communication at the University of Texas.

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I mean, like, do you have time to sleep?

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Well, sleep is actually very important.

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You know, you probably know that.

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I mean, I mean, I do actually more than ever after I came back from Vietnam, I just
realized how important it is to sleep.

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It's interesting because Vietnam is such a beautiful country.

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And now I got to see that in a totally different lens.

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When I was there and was really young, I owned my city.

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Like back then, I just...

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use my bicycle, go everywhere, every corner of my city with my friends.

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And I had no fear.

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But now I came back and I was like, whoa, know, passing, you know, going across the road
is a big deal.

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Like I would go with my brother, but it was so wonderful because like this trip, we went
to central Vietnam in Nha Trang and my brother is like every five, like five 30 in the

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morning.

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said, okay, let's go for a walk.

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And by walk, we walk for like six kilometers every morning.

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And somehow it gives you more energy.

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You know, I was like, wow, I just had this like, you know, 20 hours trips.

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And, and, somehow like, it's just amazing because the culture makes you feel alive.

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Like, you know, in central Vietnam, everyone wake up early.

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You could feel it.

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Like the sun is rising and you know, people are really into.

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even wear a uniform and like the intention of health is so important.

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So I mean, I was working really hard, but for that reason, just to be able to spend time
with family and it's totally reset me.

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And my brother said something that I remember forever.

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He said, you know what?

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We cannot borrow on our health forever.

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So this is a time for like, take a step back and do it.

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So no matter how busy I am now, I'm trying to bring in that.

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exercise mindset like because even just one hour for ourselves we can be so much more
productive for the rest of our day.

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because yeah because because when you do exercise not only is it helping you to reduce
stress because the endorphins get going but you end up sleeping better as a result.

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yes, we sleep, end up sleeping better and we become more creative.

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Like sleeping is so important for our creativity, right?

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So, and in our line of work, we can't be creative.

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We're so stressed.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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So what was the 500 hours of yoga therapy?

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Are you a yoga instructor or is that different?

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That's different.

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Right?

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is like in my past life.

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So you know, when I was at Stanford and I had a chance to organize a scientific conference
when we brought in the Dalai Lama, the 15, and he changed my life.

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I think we had like a private audience with him and after being two days with him and
being...

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It just changed everything.

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that summer I made a determination that, okay, I'm going to go and learn how to teach
yoga.

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can come back and teach at school in the Bay area, which I did.

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I taught it to like Silicon Valley, people from, you know, PayPal, leaders from PayPal.

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I taught it to students in different levels at Stanford, professor there.

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And they said, you know, Eva, when I'm not in your class, I'm thinking about your class,
but that's

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That was my initial intention.

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It's like, it would be so good to be able to teach, like check the box to tell the truth.

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But going through this process just make me realize how powerful mindfulness is and how
important it is that I need to bring it into my line of work later in digital

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transformation.

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Because in the end, even if we're creating new platforms, we're working with people from
all walks of life and we pull from different experience and that requires mindfulness.

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leadership skills so that we can really tackle all of those complexities human to human.

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Yeah, well, and I mentioned before we started recording that I have a, I'm so excited
about this keynote that I have next week and I'm talking about conscious leadership.

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And while I'm going through my talk and putting the slides together and everything, it's
like, even though it's conscious leadership, everything that we're talking about applies

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to your life.

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It doesn't matter.

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Like no matter what you do, we're all leaders, right?

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We're all leaders and I think that we've reached a time where, and you know this more than
anyone because you're in technology, that things are changing so rapidly that it's really

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hard for humans to even keep up.

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Right?

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And it's causing a lot of...

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Stress because people are like, I don't know what to do, right?

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You know last week it was this this and I was telling you like I just changed platforms to
record my my my podcast episodes on and I'm reviewing other things because I feel like

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every month Something else comes out and you have to review the tools that you're using
like, okay Are these am I getting the best bang for my buck right now with this tool?

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Right because there's so many different things coming out.

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So

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being somebody in the technology sector, how do you keep up with it?

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How do you keep up with the changing times that are happening right now?

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It's amazing.

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Like you asked all the great questions, you know, with, you know, it makes sense that, you
know, the feeling that you're describing, like things are happening and changing so much

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faster than we can imagine.

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Like I felt like I just learned something yesterday and is that going to be absolute
tomorrow?

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You know?

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So this is real, but.

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I mean, in our day, you know, sometime like when I go for a walk in the morning, I would
listen to, you know, news and technologies and I would learn something like in a way we're

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incorporating in our daily life, but in a mindful way, not to learn for the sake of
learning, but it's also to really take the time to intentionally digest the information

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and also bringing that reflections in our lives too.

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And things like that throughout the conversation with clients during the day and cover our
time to continuous learning is so important.

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But as long as we make sure we have enough sleep, because what good can we be without
adequate rest and sleep?

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Yeah, you know, I've heard some of the folks that I've worked with and spoken on their
stages and whatnot.

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And I've heard it, I've only heard it a couple of times and it's the old school way of
thinking.

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I've heard people say things like, can sleep when I die.

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And every time I hear someone say that, I'm like, okay, you know, you just predestined
yourself to an early death.

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Because if you think that I can just sleep when I die, it's gonna catch up with you.

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You're missing the point.

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And that's the thing too.

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Like I think learning should be fun, right?

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Like should be something that we incorporate in our daily life.

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You know, I'd learn by talking with my colleagues, learn by teaching my students and
teaching them how to learn in a mindful way.

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Also, I brought in, you know, even when I teach, I brought in AI to, to help them to
learn.

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how to be more critical, how to be more communicative, how to be more collaborative.

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But AI now can also help us.

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So using instructional AI can really help students to, especially some diverse students,
they might learn that better than in a traditional way.

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So in a way, we're gaining back time.

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For example, I would have my textbook if I'm teaching them, but I said, OK, look, I get
it.

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You know, it's not for everyone.

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But what if you can't ask three, at least one really good questions, but think about
questions you ask, not just like, here's a question, but think about the questions and

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talk about the reason behind why you're asking it.

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And then you answer two questions to other people.

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So, you know, I'm partnering with other companies to do this, to bringing that AI
instruction, AI so that they're not.

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spitting out the answers to students, but doing that, students have to learn how to write
better, how to read better, and really have to be collaborative in that process.

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And they said, you know, sometimes they came like, hey, Professor Ava, this is like much
better for me because, you know, like somehow I learned this way better.

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So how do we learn?

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It's also important in keeping up with technology, like finding what

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resonate with us.

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How do we learn better?

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Like some of us learn better with reading, but some of us learning better with writing.

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tools like that, understanding ourselves, coming back to be self -awareness, and always
take a deep breath and learning with other people because it's so fun when we can discuss

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things and learn with others.

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Yeah, for sure.

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All right, so your book is out.

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What was the motivation, let's just say, for putting this book out?

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And talk about it a little bit more.

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So, you know, when I was younger, like when I was 18, I left Vietnam and I didn't speak a
word of English, not much, but I always have this burning desire to communicate with

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others.

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So over time, you know, luckily I'm learning how to communicate in English.

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And I thought, thank you.

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And then I thought, wow, what would that...

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You know, this is just a way, you know, and when I was younger, I was like always shy
from, I was very reserved and shy away from like showing who I am.

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And part of that as culture, but part of that is maybe I'm putting that barriers into
myself, right?

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And then another part of that is just like, I didn't know what to say because like, how do
I'm going to say it?

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I didn't know how to say it in words, in English.

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So writing a book was always be my, was like one of the dreams that I wanted to make it
happen.

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And then.

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I thought like, you know, throughout the years when I coach clients, being their strategic
advisors, helping to gain, you know, help them to save like a million dollars within six

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months, for example.

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And I thought overall, like there is a theme and it's all about strategy, all about
integrated strategy with mindfulness and process improvement in product innovation in even

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manufacturing, all of that.

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So I just decided that.

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this is the time to write it down.

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So it's kind of a gift to everyone who actually interested in wanting to go out there and
not to worry about being perfect.

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So what do you mean by decisive leadership?

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What do I mean by decisive leadership?

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I think it's really a leader that's not only authentic, but also able to make decisions
because in strategy, we probably have million ways we can go, especially in AI.

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But being a decisive leadership is the ability to make decisions, to move forward, and
know that

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This is not the last decision you're going to make in your entire life.

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But at the same time, think about the pros and the cons and trade off.

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Like I don't say like go and make decision in five minutes, but sometime we have to make
decision without all the data given to us.

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And, you know, by interviewing people, by understanding data, sometimes just using our
guts, all of that together.

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It's something that, you know,

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I have more experience with time goes by.

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It's not always easy to do, but I did create that, my framework, impact, you know, the
impact framework that you can read more, like readers can read more in the book as well.

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It's that incorporate all of that authenticity that's both the right brain and the left
brain.

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Is impact an acronym?

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mm -hmm.

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framework.

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So can you just tell us what that stands for?

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Yeah.

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So the impact is, it's an acronym and it's, know, it's bringing in that innovations that
bringing in that authentic city.

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And it's like bringing out all that creativity.

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It's a really a long one.

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So I'd rather, I'm going to make a video on that one because, know, I still want to get it
too technical, like sometime like, you know, it's get technical, but yeah, it's basically,

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it's a, it's a framework that I use all the time because

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I was comparing, I was thinking about there are certain amazing framework that the
industry have been using in like prioritization.

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Like the RISE framework has a lot of values into it that Google's used it.

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And there's other like smart goals framework, but my framework is bringing that
authenticity that

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Sometimes you kind of know what your teams need.

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And I'm bringing an example in that as well so that you can choose for yourself because
for digital transformations, we cannot just really take just very simple, you know, like

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way, not sometimes not linear way.

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So it's including part of that, including that smart framework into it.

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part of that.

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in the prioritization and these are not exactly a comparison but more like complement to
one another.

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Awesome.

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Fantastic.

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00:27:21,857 --> 00:27:35,761
Well, I love that you brought up authenticity so often and I love that you have that word
in your podcast because, know, for forever, we all thought that love was the highest

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frequency emotion that we could feel.

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But now they're saying authenticity is even higher than that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it's, you know, if you're living...

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as an authentic individual, that's a really strong and powerful place to lead from.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's where I brought it in with my framework too, because to start with
discover, or sometime authenticity cannot happen if we don't really understand who we are.

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discover, you know, your, your clients, your teams, what, what make them feel alive.

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It's also important as much as discover yourself first, knowing ourself first is
important.

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And then you go into that engage mode and

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you know, so on and so forth.

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So that's all in the framework called Deep Impact.

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But you're right, know, Sandy, because in a way, you know, we have, we will be working for
eight hours a day at least.

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So if we're not being authentic with ourselves, imagine the level of anxiety and stress
that can increase.

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And how can we be creative and help our clients and our teams if we're in that mode?

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Energy is important.

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Energy is so, so important.

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00:28:57,994 --> 00:28:58,975
my gosh.

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I'm so excited for everything you have going on.

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We're about to wrap this up.

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Is there anything else that you'd like to share that you haven't talked about?

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I mean, it just continued, you know, when I was younger, like I didn't know much about
different cultures.

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So I was trying to blend in, but then, you know, now I realize that just use your, who you
are.

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Like you have things that no one can, can do.

348
00:29:28,265 --> 00:29:35,221
Like, you know, you, you might have extra sense in terms of creating belonging to your
teams.

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Like you might have a special talents that

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that no one have, so really hone into who you are and embrace that.

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00:29:44,766 --> 00:29:54,294
And I'm starting to embrace that as I go along, as I grow up as well, and see that as the
unit strengths rather than something that I have to hide from.

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00:29:54,775 --> 00:30:01,601
just like you, you're using your unique gift to be here, you know, interview all of us.

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And that's a special skill set.

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So for all of us, just know that there's a gift that you have it within you.

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So use that because we only have one life to live and incorporate everything, that who you
are in it.

356
00:30:20,634 --> 00:30:24,231
Yeah, and I heard this a few weeks ago.

357
00:30:24,231 --> 00:30:24,943
Someone said it.

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00:30:24,943 --> 00:30:28,699
I wrote it down on my whiteboard and it says you're not getting this day back.

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00:30:28,961 --> 00:30:30,850
No, you're not getting the days back.

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00:30:30,850 --> 00:30:34,003
And I have to write it down because some days I'm like, just do it tomorrow.

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And then I'm like, you're right.

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00:30:35,445 --> 00:30:36,365
I'm not getting to stay back.

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00:30:36,365 --> 00:30:37,256
Like, right?

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00:30:37,256 --> 00:30:38,767
Let's get it done.

365
00:30:40,848 --> 00:30:41,738
Yeah.

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00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:42,611
yeah.

367
00:30:42,611 --> 00:30:44,283
Well, Ava, thank you so much.

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I wish you the best of luck with everything that you're doing.

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00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:55,070
And folks, check out Ava's book, Decisive Leadership, Transforming Complex Challenges into
Competitive Edge.

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the show notes there will be her website and your Instagram is Eva easy it's just Eva
thatch and Eva is spelled with two V's I love that A -V -V -A -T -H -A -C -H and that's

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Instagram and Facebook and then she also has a YouTube channel which will be in the show
notes as well so thank you so much Eva really appreciate your time today and for all the

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00:31:19,955 --> 00:31:24,908
listeners thank you and yeah yeah thank you so much

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00:31:24,908 --> 00:31:26,594
everyone, for listening in.

374
00:31:26,892 --> 00:31:30,437
Yeah, thank you and take care everybody.

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00:31:30,437 --> 00:31:31,638
Thanks so much.