340. Ending Marriage, Not Relationships: Kim Korven’s Approach to Peaceful Divorce

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Kim Corbin, so excited to be seeing you today.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Well, thank you so much for having me.

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This is really wonderful.

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Yes, I was just excited when you reached out to me to be on the show and love this
conversation.

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And it's so important.

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It's such an important conversation.

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So for the audience, Kim is a former divorce lawyer and divorce mediator, meditator.

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Meditation's probably good too, right?

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meditator for a long time.

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helps.

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She's a divorce mediator who figured out how to divorce peacefully without her children
suffering.

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And now she helps hundreds of women experience peace through the divorce process.

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So you're a divorce strategist and guide, and you help women who've wasted years in their
marriage and have reached a breaking point, but are scared to expose their children to the

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trauma of traditional divorce.

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And I went through the same thing.

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I...

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I stayed in a marriage a lot longer than I knew I needed to be because I didn't want my
son to suffer.

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So thank you for being here today.

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Well, no, well, thank you.

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And it all came about because that was me too.

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And that was the great irony.

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You know, I had had clients, like one client, she and her husband, they needed to hire a
mediator to help them divide household contents, including spices.

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Yeah.

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And I never questioned it, you know, until there's my marriage and I'm like, well, I can't
leave because that would harm my kids.

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So it's the great irony that I was terrified of that approach.

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And yet you were a divorce lawyer.

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Mm -hmm, exactly.

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That's the great irony.

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So tell us the story.

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How did this, just walk us through the story of how you went from being a divorce lawyer
to now a divorce strategist.

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I love that divorce strategist.

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Because I think that if couples could have a strategy in place, but that they're probably,
sometimes they're not able to even go there.

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Well, but I think part of it is they don't think that it's possible.

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We're so stuck in this paradigm of fighting.

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So what happened, right?

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Because that's what we all do.

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That's the divorce we all know.

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And it wasn't until, you know, and I went for years going, should I stay?

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Should I go?

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And even thinking, gee, you know, if he would just ride his bicycle into a semi one day,
that would be the best.

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Now, you're laughing because you had a similar thought, right?

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But of course that's not what we want.

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You may think you want that, at the end of the day, nobody wants that.

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but you know, we're all so terrified of traditional divorce and I should say, I laugh
about it now, but I felt such shame and guilt about those thoughts.

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Like I told a really dear friend about a year before I actually asked my husband to leave
and her response was just, and I'm like, is that bad?

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Like that's the path I was on and she just nodded her head.

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So that was kind of the wake up call.

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Now when I finally realized that my kids were being harmed by us staying together.

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That's when I really came face to face with, can't, I cannot subject them to what I've
seen other people's children experience or heard about.

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Because I remember one client at the law firm, I didn't even work with this person, but
every time the child was exchanged between the parents, the police had to be called.

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You know, and I'd worked on a big file where dad had refused to pay support for his kids
and it ended up in a really ugly court battle where dad was going to go to jail.

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So that was, so it was like, I cannot do that to my kids.

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Now, what had happened in my legal career was I had worked in a really ugly child
protection file where my client had a social worker helping her.

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And the social worker would always say children love their parents no matter what.

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Doesn't matter what the parents do, kids will love their parents.

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That was my starting point.

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It was how can I do this in a way where my kids will have the best relationship possible
with their dad.

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Now, my husband didn't want to get divorced.

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mean, religious, his religion doesn't recognize divorce, okay?

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and he has a first cousin who's a priest, so.

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So all kinds of dynamics.

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I think neither of us, our mental health was not, we weren't in a good place mentally in
the marriage.

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And it's way, way lots of conflict.

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So I basically dragged him along.

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And I did it from a perspective of what's best for the kids.

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and I didn't make him feel small.

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So he actually went along with it and it wasn't this let's rush to the lawyers at all.

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I'm just like, no, you here are the issues, here's what we can do.

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And he just kind of said, okay Kim, can we get back together?

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Is there hope of getting back together?

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I didn't think there was, but I knew I had seen everything.

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So I'm like, well, anything's possible here.

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And it was very unconventional.

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Like he would come and parent the kids here in the house, put them to bed at night,
because this was the kids' safe place.

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So they were really front and center.

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And people who knew both of us used to say to me, Kim, how did you do it?

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And I was just, anybody can do it.

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You know, because they knew he had anger issues and didn't believe in divorce.

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I'm like, anybody can do it.

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But I ended up.

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Six or so years after, I'd asked my husband to leave.

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I had a cousin who was going through a really ugly divorce battle, traditionally, hardly
saw his kids.

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And he walked off the face of the earth.

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And his body was found more than three months later.

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So he left two kids without a dad.

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That was when I realized I better figure out what I did so that that result didn't happen
to other families.

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Yeah, yeah, that's terrible.

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Yeah, it's, I've seen, I've seen not nearly as much as you obviously, because I'm not a
divorce lawyer, but I've seen and I know of friends that had such horrific experiences and

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six, seven year court battles.

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that when they finally have a, you know, everything's resolved, you know, and they have,
don't know, let's just, hypothetically, they've got $500 ,000 to split and every penny

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goes to the lawyers.

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And it's like, is it worth it?

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Was that really worth it?

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And your children are suicidal, like, right?

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Kids are suicidal.

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But know, every penny that you have to your name goes to the lawyers.

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It's just not worth it.

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It's not worth it.

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These children, children only have one childhood.

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I know and like I agree and when I used to practice family law I would say to my clients
look do you want to pay me or do you want to have money for your kids?

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Mm

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Right, there's a reason I never failed to be right because it's like what's good for the
family.

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partners going Kim you don't say that to your clients we want the money, right?

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exactly.

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Well, one of the managing partners, well, I mean, but the people who paid me, like I could
collect what I build on, right?

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I didn't, I made sure it had value for people.

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And I remember so, not surprisingly, I prepared my own separation agreement and

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and I didn't mention custody in the agreement.

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Custody, it's a French, it's old French word that's a property term, right?

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Who controls this type of property?

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So when you think about kids, that's really, to me, it's really offensive.

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And plus, I had a child who had behavioral issues who needed help.

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And I had a spouse who didn't always like to make this, who wasn't always in a place where
he could evaluate and make decisions for the good of our child.

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So I didn't believe in sole custody.

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I didn't think I should have sole, you know, have that label.

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But I knew if I put joint custody in the agreement that perhaps our child would not get
the assistance that was

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that was needed.

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Now for my clients, a few of them, I had left custody out of the agreement.

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So I left it out and it just said I was the primary caregiver.

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Well, the lawyer I took it to, she was actually a colleague of mine.

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She had a fit.

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Kim, how can you be doing this?

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You are leaving yourself so exposed when there are problems.

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The court won't be able to make a decision on it because, you know, it's not here.

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It needs to be here.

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So I explained many times why it was worded the way it was and she's still pushing, right?

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And finally, I said to her, look, can't you just prepare the letter that says I'm signing
this against your best professional advice and I can't sue you or the firm?

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Fine, Kim.

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Right.

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And that letter didn't say

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if things went sideways.

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said when things went sideways.

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Right?

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Like she would not let me sign it unless the agreement was changed or I signed off.

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Right?

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It was about protecting her.

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And, you know, and I remember being so mad signing that.

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But I also thought, I remember thinking, this is me who's part of the system, I understand
the risks, and what my instincts were telling me when she was saying you needed it in Kim,

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I'm like, we're gonna end up fighting in court for five years, is what was going through
my head.

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If I put this in, it's gonna be a deal breaker.

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And I thought, this is me who's part of the system, who understands the risks, this is how
I'm being treated.

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basically like I'm eight years old, maybe 10.

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And I thought for the average person going through divorce who's not part of the system,
they're gonna go, you you feel like a failure.

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And it's like, well, I'm paying you, you're the expert.

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I guess I better do what you say.

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Right, so that's how the people you know end up spending all their money and fighting for
seven years.

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Yeah.

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I had the background to be able to say that and to know it's possible.

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And so it's something I do with people now as part of the strategy piece, right?

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Like part of the discussion is, look, if you fight it out, this is what you're gonna end
up spending.

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This is how long you're gonna be fighting.

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Like what's most important to you?

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Traditional divorce isn't about people at the center, the law is at the center.

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Mmm.

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There's no value there for humans.

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There's just heartache.

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Everybody loses, yeah.

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my goodness, wow.

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All right, so I'm like, what's next?

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I'm now how many years out divorced?

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15 years.

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think I've been divorced for 15 years now, remarried.

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When I finally reached the point where I was ready to divorce my ex -husband, he was kind
of okay with it.

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And then he wasn't.

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Because again, I don't know why sometimes people don't want to...

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When you have somebody come to you and say, I think it's time that we separate, divorce,
whatever, even just break up.

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What I don't understand is why people, maybe you have some insight because you've dealt
with clients in couples for so many years, why is it that one person fights it?

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Like if somebody came to me, because I'm remarried now, if my husband came to me and said,
you know, I'm sorry, I just, I want a divorce.

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Well,

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I would want to have a conversation, but I'm not going to fight them on it.

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If you don't want to be with me, then I'm not, know, fine, let's go our separate ways.

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Because I don't want to be with somebody who doesn't want to be with me.

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So I just don't understand.

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I think that there's a few possibilities that can happen.

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And one is how the human brain works.

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And what's familiar is viewed as safe, is how the brain interprets it, if it's really,
really like beyond the pale.

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That would make...

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And I'm thinking even my thought process about, if he would just die.

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That I later found out every woman has those thoughts.

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Because it appears to be easier than divorce.

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Like, that's how twisted all of this is, right?

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That we think that's better than ending the marriage.

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It's just bizarre.

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like you, you just, you feel like it's easier.

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That'd be the easy way out, even though it's not, right?

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really, I think the other thing that has people resisting this is the structure of divorce
and the fact that it resides, its home is in the civil court system where people are

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adversaries.

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So if you look at Amanda Ripley's book, High Conflict, I found it really interesting, you
know, because

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There's four factors I never remember all for, but that will make a dispute go high
conflict.

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And one is there's this community that says fight, fight, fight.

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Well, and that's the dominant paradigm of divorce.

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A conflictpreneur, there's somebody close to you who's benefiting from stirring up this
conflict.

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Well, that's the attorney.

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who has to be a zealous advocate for their client and protecting their client against
worst possible legal outcomes.

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You're not a whole person.

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And the third one I always remember is one person feels humiliated.

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So if you don't know, like most people when there's, there's always one when there's
friction in a relationship and this is any kind of relationship.

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Like I've seen this commercially as well.

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one of the parties knows this isn't working and I have to do something.

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The other party is, yeah, this isn't working, but you know, it's what it is, it's gonna
keep going.

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You know, it's where the brain is.

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And so if that person finds out it's not working by getting served with legal papers, and
the legal paperwork, of course, is phrased in a way that's very negative and it's pointing

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fingers, you're to blame.

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Yeah.

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Like that's the structure of civil pleadings.

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Pleadings are the court documents.

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Of course you're gonna feel humiliated.

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And it's way easy then to get to World War III.

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So really doing it well and in a way so everybody can be happy, it starts with how you
tell the other person.

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Okay?

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And I should say like I talked about how horrible

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it was and how he didn't want to get divorced.

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But you know, when my former father -in -law passed away,

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I got invited to the funeral and I discovered he mentioned me in his obituary as the
mother of his grandkids.

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Right?

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given the religious affiliation, I did not see that coming.

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But it just says how powerful it is to do this well.

219
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:57,050
Right?

220
00:18:57,050 --> 00:19:01,603
Like I really gave a lot of thought to how

221
00:19:02,165 --> 00:19:03,437
how to end it.

222
00:19:03,437 --> 00:19:08,802
And I talked, I shared one of my best memories of our time together.

223
00:19:09,424 --> 00:19:14,079
So I didn't just turn this into cookie cutter, me against you and you're all bad.

224
00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:18,053
It was like, yeah, so I honored him in the telling.

225
00:19:18,294 --> 00:19:21,677
And I made it about doing what was best for our kids.

226
00:19:22,299 --> 00:19:23,079
So.

227
00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:24,862
Love it.

228
00:19:24,926 --> 00:19:26,721
Yeah, and I think that...

229
00:19:29,401 --> 00:19:37,188
you would hope that people would take that into consideration and so often they don't.

230
00:19:37,188 --> 00:19:40,270
So how do you work with women?

231
00:19:40,450 --> 00:19:40,781
Right?

232
00:19:40,781 --> 00:19:45,754
Because you help, you mentioned in your bio that you help women who's wasted years in
their marriage.

233
00:19:46,296 --> 00:19:48,938
Right?

234
00:19:48,938 --> 00:19:51,670
How do you walk them through that when they first come to you?

235
00:19:52,773 --> 00:19:55,189
great question.

236
00:19:57,298 --> 00:19:59,683
There's a few different ways.

237
00:20:02,761 --> 00:20:08,374
Now I have a divorce ritual that I sometimes use to help people process.

238
00:20:10,675 --> 00:20:22,161
is sharing stories a lot, you know, to validate their experience, to validate the love
they still feel.

239
00:20:23,082 --> 00:20:26,334
It comes, so I mean, I still do some mediation.

240
00:20:26,334 --> 00:20:28,785
I do more one -on -one work.

241
00:20:29,366 --> 00:20:36,209
I have this really great community for women going through, to support women going through
divorce.

242
00:20:36,309 --> 00:20:39,621
That involves me facilitating peer support.

243
00:20:40,341 --> 00:20:44,180
So it's like a mastermind is part of it.

244
00:20:44,783 --> 00:20:48,421
And it's that not feeling alone.

245
00:20:50,579 --> 00:20:58,889
And I guess the other real critically important piece is I start with what's important to
them always.

246
00:20:59,054 --> 00:20:59,986
Yeah.

247
00:21:00,253 --> 00:21:00,696
Yeah.

248
00:21:00,696 --> 00:21:02,864
then the strategy comes from there.

249
00:21:03,426 --> 00:21:08,103
Okay, and it's going to look different for every single person, I'm sure.

250
00:21:08,103 --> 00:21:08,995
yeah.

251
00:21:09,118 --> 00:21:13,160
Well, there's a few things that I do with everybody.

252
00:21:16,957 --> 00:21:24,019
Like the divorce ritual is really powerful because we have rituals for everything else but
not for divorce.

253
00:21:24,019 --> 00:21:27,610
So if you don't have that, how do you process?

254
00:21:27,610 --> 00:21:28,704
ritual?

255
00:21:29,961 --> 00:21:32,556
Well, you know how we have rituals for everything else?

256
00:21:32,556 --> 00:21:37,103
So I created this little exercise with yarn that I share with people.

257
00:21:39,219 --> 00:21:52,768
You know, and it's to honor the marriage, to honor the birth of the kids, and then there's
a, you end up cutting the knot you tied for this wedding.

258
00:21:52,989 --> 00:21:56,351
But it's just simple little things.

259
00:21:56,351 --> 00:22:06,197
And I think part of what happens working with me is for some reason, you know, I don't put
the law on a pedestal.

260
00:22:06,638 --> 00:22:07,478
Like...

261
00:22:08,765 --> 00:22:22,058
All the law is, is the law is government's way of saying, okay, when people are in
conflict or there's a potential of hurting somebody, here are the minimum standards for

262
00:22:22,058 --> 00:22:23,449
life stuff.

263
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:33,639
And when people can remember, yeah, like child support, really, that's about making sure
my kids have a good life.

264
00:22:35,145 --> 00:22:40,005
which every parent wants and if you phrase it that way you can have a better conversation.

265
00:22:40,366 --> 00:22:41,159
Yeah.

266
00:22:41,939 --> 00:22:47,181
Right, and it helps people connect with, yeah, I'm actually the expert.

267
00:22:48,463 --> 00:22:50,743
And all of that helps with the healing.

268
00:22:51,564 --> 00:22:57,417
And you know, I worked with a couple recently and it was ugly.

269
00:22:59,247 --> 00:23:06,975
But they set a joint goal to have Christmas dinner with their adult kids.

270
00:23:09,427 --> 00:23:21,792
And it was beautiful, it was so much fun working with them because even the areas where
there's usually a lot of friction and resistance, you know, it was like, I'll pay spousal

271
00:23:21,792 --> 00:23:23,483
support, it makes sense here.

272
00:23:26,269 --> 00:23:34,152
when there had been so much hurt and trauma and it was a situation with adult kids going,
mom, when are you gonna leave?

273
00:23:34,214 --> 00:23:35,525
Like, come on, mom.

274
00:23:37,161 --> 00:23:40,994
Right, so it's just, it's like, it's wonderful.

275
00:23:40,994 --> 00:23:53,123
Like, it's just, it sounds magical, and it's just to see it work, but it's that connecting
to what's most important to you for your family, and that's the starting point.

276
00:23:54,204 --> 00:24:01,029
Right, much like mine, with wanting my kids to have the best relationship possible with
their dad.

277
00:24:01,390 --> 00:24:03,411
And that's what's happened, so.

278
00:24:04,324 --> 00:24:05,364
That's awesome.

279
00:24:05,364 --> 00:24:12,184
Yeah, I mean, my ex -husband is a litigator.

280
00:24:15,964 --> 00:24:20,924
yeah, we were married for 21 years and today we're like brother and sister.

281
00:24:21,004 --> 00:24:22,844
Now, it wasn't always like that.

282
00:24:22,844 --> 00:24:25,504
It was not always like that.

283
00:24:25,804 --> 00:24:31,716
however, I guess you could say, know, lucky for him that I'm...

284
00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:34,596
highly, highly, highly forgiving person.

285
00:24:34,816 --> 00:24:49,276
And so that's really how I've been able to manage to you know, not let anything that
happened prevent me from having a relationship with him, you know.

286
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:54,646
And, you know, our son will be 23, 24 in a month.

287
00:24:54,646 --> 00:24:56,016
He's 23 now, he'll be 24.

288
00:24:56,016 --> 00:24:59,976
I was like looking at my phone, I'm like, yeah, in one month.

289
00:25:00,004 --> 00:25:02,404
One month from yesterday, he'll be 24.

290
00:25:02,724 --> 00:25:08,164
And he and his dad have a great relationship.

291
00:25:10,864 --> 00:25:17,464
His dad will call me and talk to me about women that he's dating or whatever.

292
00:25:17,464 --> 00:25:20,144
he comes over for holidays.

293
00:25:20,144 --> 00:25:26,882
just went to, my sister -in was in town and he joined us for breakfast with my mom.

294
00:25:26,882 --> 00:25:28,334
so he could see my sister -in -law.

295
00:25:28,334 --> 00:25:33,670
It's actually really, really incredible.

296
00:25:33,670 --> 00:25:44,993
And I'm sharing this, folks, with the audience just to share that it is possible, that I
do know firsthand that it is possible to have a really great relationship with your ex.

297
00:25:46,216 --> 00:25:46,769
Yeah.

298
00:25:46,769 --> 00:25:47,940
a similar story.

299
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:51,805
And I call him my former spouse, not my ex.

300
00:25:51,805 --> 00:25:56,059
So, well, just it's got a kinder sound to it.

301
00:25:58,844 --> 00:26:01,875
But we get to get, yeah.

302
00:26:01,875 --> 00:26:02,706
stay my ex.

303
00:26:02,706 --> 00:26:03,867
He's my ex.

304
00:26:04,728 --> 00:26:08,826
I like what you said, but sorry Mark, you're my ex.

305
00:26:08,826 --> 00:26:11,399
he calls me his ex, okay?

306
00:26:11,399 --> 00:26:24,030
I'm sure of that because I'm still, you know, and it's funny, like our son, same age as
your son, he was big in band in school.

307
00:26:24,030 --> 00:26:27,772
And I remember before one concert, I'm running late.

308
00:26:28,554 --> 00:26:31,596
And my former spouse, he's on the parent committee.

309
00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:35,449
So he's there, you know, handing out programs and stuff.

310
00:26:35,733 --> 00:26:41,385
So I sent him a text and say, hey, save me a seat beside you, because I'm running late.

311
00:26:42,106 --> 00:26:49,139
So I march in like right before the concert starts and the place is full and I'm like,
where are we sitting?

312
00:26:49,139 --> 00:26:51,950
And he's, you're not sitting by me.

313
00:26:51,950 --> 00:26:55,321
Stacey came and I asked her to save you a seat.

314
00:26:55,321 --> 00:26:57,052
I'm like, okay.

315
00:26:58,893 --> 00:26:59,793
Right?

316
00:27:00,714 --> 00:27:03,493
Well, but he took care of the issue for me.

317
00:27:03,493 --> 00:27:04,326
to care of you.

318
00:27:04,326 --> 00:27:05,725
So that's important.

319
00:27:05,725 --> 00:27:06,156
Right?

320
00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:10,959
And an earlier version of me could have been miffed about that.

321
00:27:11,701 --> 00:27:12,131
Right?

322
00:27:12,131 --> 00:27:14,663
But it was just like, he got me a seat.

323
00:27:14,663 --> 00:27:16,024
This is great.

324
00:27:17,346 --> 00:27:18,008
You know?

325
00:27:18,008 --> 00:27:23,285
because you, because in that moment, Kim, you had a choice as to how you were going to
handle the situation.

326
00:27:23,285 --> 00:27:25,767
And many people would have been annoyed by that.

327
00:27:25,988 --> 00:27:33,838
And, you know, it's a good thing that you didn't because, you know, it doesn't serve you,
right?

328
00:27:33,838 --> 00:27:36,181
It wouldn't have, it wouldn't have, yeah.

329
00:27:36,181 --> 00:27:41,925
something else I say to my clients often is keep your eye on the prize.

330
00:27:42,447 --> 00:27:47,671
Like what's most important and getting upset about that, that was not the prize.

331
00:27:49,961 --> 00:27:55,012
You know, so it comes in all different perspectives.

332
00:27:55,193 --> 00:28:02,655
And I remember early on, like he left a lot of his stuff in the house.

333
00:28:02,955 --> 00:28:05,736
And I ended up going to get my masters.

334
00:28:05,736 --> 00:28:09,277
It was part of reclaiming me and his stuff is still there.

335
00:28:09,277 --> 00:28:11,777
Well, he had this beer bottle collection.

336
00:28:11,877 --> 00:28:17,629
Every place he would go, he'd have a local craft beer and he'd bring the bottle home.

337
00:28:17,905 --> 00:28:20,356
I thought it was completely stupid.

338
00:28:21,057 --> 00:28:33,063
So before I packed up my house to rent my house out and move, I threw his beer bottle
collection in the garbage, which I feel guilty about, right?

339
00:28:33,063 --> 00:28:37,726
I'm like, Kim, that was so mean, spirit it.

340
00:28:38,226 --> 00:28:40,047
But yet here we are.

341
00:28:41,128 --> 00:28:46,731
We can still effectively co -parent, you know, and

342
00:28:47,135 --> 00:28:49,429
He just did a road trip with our son.

343
00:28:49,429 --> 00:28:51,579
Our son lives on the West Coast now.

344
00:28:53,141 --> 00:29:05,129
So like it's, and the night before they left, we had a family dinner with my husband, my
daughter, like our daughter, so it's a good blended bunch.

345
00:29:05,272 --> 00:29:07,454
Yeah, it is possible.

346
00:29:07,454 --> 00:29:19,302
and you know, another reason that I wanted to have this conversation with you today is, to
really emphasize that as parents, we have to take responsibility that everything that we

347
00:29:19,302 --> 00:29:27,627
do is going to affect our children in so many, so many ways it's going to affect them.

348
00:29:27,627 --> 00:29:31,170
And, and I'm going to, I'm going to reiterate it, reiterate it again.

349
00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:33,811
Children have one childhood.

350
00:29:34,072 --> 00:29:35,032
That's it.

351
00:29:35,032 --> 00:29:37,175
They only get one shot at being a kid.

352
00:29:37,697 --> 00:29:46,271
And as adults, we need to be the ones to be responsible, to take care of our children,
because they are our future.

353
00:29:46,579 --> 00:29:49,181
And yeah, they are.

354
00:29:49,181 --> 00:29:54,515
And you know, I used to say, there was no conflict in my house.

355
00:29:54,515 --> 00:29:56,547
There was just lots of tension.

356
00:29:56,548 --> 00:30:10,751
And then when I was researching to do a TEDx talk on the impact of conflict on children, I
stumbled across this research paper where they had looked at all types of conflict, which

357
00:30:10,751 --> 00:30:13,675
includes the silent conflict, the tension.

358
00:30:13,675 --> 00:30:17,079
passive aggressive behavior, like pick me, that was us.

359
00:30:18,082 --> 00:30:22,007
And for kids of divorced parents,

360
00:30:23,755 --> 00:30:37,035
up to half of the behavioral and academic issues that are seen, they show up between four
to 12 years before the parents stop living together.

361
00:30:37,775 --> 00:30:50,135
So when we think, you know, so your comment about children just have one childhood, yeah,
and we think we're doing them a favor by staying together, and that's harming them.

362
00:30:50,135 --> 00:30:52,217
That's harming their childhood.

363
00:30:52,217 --> 00:30:53,469
Yeah, for sure.

364
00:30:53,469 --> 00:30:59,784
And I just think, what would the world be like if kids experience more peace in their
families?

365
00:31:01,166 --> 00:31:02,717
Like, can you imagine?

366
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,074
Yeah.

367
00:31:06,074 --> 00:31:12,984
No, I can and I can't because, you know, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

368
00:31:12,984 --> 00:31:18,452
Well, okay, so you have an amazing free gift to share with the audience.

369
00:31:18,452 --> 00:31:20,084
Do want to tell everybody about it?

370
00:31:20,739 --> 00:31:26,383
Well, a lot of the people who phone me and are interested in working with me I hear I
still love him.

371
00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:42,194
I you know, like this is not about hating each other So I created a quiz Divorce would
love quiz specifically I did it just for this call is it was what the the big let's do it

372
00:31:42,194 --> 00:31:49,158
Kim So that people can evaluate and ask themselves the questions right like one of them I
think is about

373
00:31:49,813 --> 00:31:56,511
Do you want to a fortune on attorneys or would you rather take your kids on a cruise?

374
00:31:57,304 --> 00:31:59,422
Yeah, that's great.

375
00:31:59,422 --> 00:32:00,737
That's a great one.

376
00:32:01,277 --> 00:32:08,623
Well, and it's those common sense ones to get people to think about because you're an
example of it worked well, right?

377
00:32:08,623 --> 00:32:12,426
Like you knew kids have one childhood.

378
00:32:12,967 --> 00:32:20,903
I'm another example where it could have really gone either way, but for love of my kids.

379
00:32:20,903 --> 00:32:22,745
And I see it all the time in clients.

380
00:32:22,745 --> 00:32:26,837
And I think kids deserve more and their parents deserve more.

381
00:32:27,018 --> 00:32:28,539
So, yeah.

382
00:32:28,942 --> 00:32:29,912
I love that.

383
00:32:29,912 --> 00:32:31,794
So that'll be in the show notes, everybody.

384
00:32:31,794 --> 00:32:32,904
Get that.

385
00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:36,407
Download the quiz and take it.

386
00:32:36,407 --> 00:32:43,192
And you'll be able to see Kim's social media links in the show notes.

387
00:32:43,192 --> 00:32:47,315
So you can reach out to her on Instagram or Facebook.

388
00:32:47,576 --> 00:32:51,878
yeah, peaceful divorces are possible.

389
00:32:51,879 --> 00:32:53,599
There's two of us right here.

390
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:54,760
Mm -hmm.

391
00:32:55,081 --> 00:33:02,671
And it's isn't it wonderful we live in a society now where we can talk about this and Say
you don't have to do it this way

392
00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:03,890
That's right.

393
00:33:04,619 --> 00:33:07,304
There's a healthy way to do it, a happy way.

394
00:33:07,438 --> 00:33:10,369
there's totally a healthy and happy way to do it.

395
00:33:11,130 --> 00:33:24,178
you know, fighting over money is just plain stupid because it's just money's an energy and
is it, you need to ask, you know, and I just bring that up, Kim, because for so many

396
00:33:24,178 --> 00:33:25,699
people it is about money.

397
00:33:25,699 --> 00:33:31,622
And I know in my situation that I settled for a lot less.

398
00:33:31,823 --> 00:33:33,743
And my lawyer said to me,

399
00:33:34,378 --> 00:33:42,498
After we had signed, because I'd ended up not using a lawyer, my lawyer said to me, I
would never have advised you to sign this.

400
00:33:42,498 --> 00:33:43,329
And I go, I know.

401
00:33:43,329 --> 00:33:46,261
I said, but the money isn't worth it to me.

402
00:33:48,204 --> 00:33:49,906
My needs will be met.

403
00:33:50,307 --> 00:33:53,650
It's more important that my son is in a good place.

404
00:33:54,709 --> 00:33:57,261
Well, and there's a safety factor too.

405
00:33:57,261 --> 00:34:04,655
Like when we talk about narcissists, the worst is actually coercive control.

406
00:34:04,655 --> 00:34:06,156
I'm not going to say anything about it.

407
00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:08,247
That could be a whole other.

408
00:34:08,616 --> 00:34:10,095
another podcast, yeah.

409
00:34:10,095 --> 00:34:25,434
But what happens when you divorce this way, like the way I help people with nobody feeling
humiliated, those individuals who are very controlling, like sometimes, you know, they

410
00:34:25,434 --> 00:34:28,645
just want to be loved too and treated with respect.

411
00:34:28,806 --> 00:34:34,289
So they'll be fair up to a point if they're not humiliated.

412
00:34:34,289 --> 00:34:37,971
So yeah, it's walking away with less than you might otherwise get.

413
00:34:39,017 --> 00:34:40,015
And it works, right?

414
00:34:40,015 --> 00:34:41,563
It keeps women safe.

415
00:34:44,939 --> 00:34:54,065
And it's counter the legal system, but it keeps them safe and everybody much more likely
to be happy.

416
00:34:54,734 --> 00:34:56,515
For sure, absolutely.

417
00:34:56,515 --> 00:34:57,435
Because I knew that.

418
00:34:57,435 --> 00:34:59,737
I knew that because I knew my ex -husband.

419
00:34:59,737 --> 00:35:07,011
I knew that if I made things difficult for him financially, that it was going to be a
nasty divorce and I didn't want that.

420
00:35:07,011 --> 00:35:08,101
So I was like, you know what?

421
00:35:08,101 --> 00:35:09,132
I'm good.

422
00:35:09,352 --> 00:35:09,882
I'm good.

423
00:35:09,882 --> 00:35:13,234
don't, you know, it's all good.

424
00:35:13,474 --> 00:35:15,255
And at the end of the day, my son,

425
00:35:17,496 --> 00:35:25,679
While he still had his own trials and tribulations to go through with his father, today
everybody's in a great place.

426
00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:37,162
And I'm very proud of my son and how he's things with his dad and his father.

427
00:35:37,162 --> 00:35:39,283
I absolutely love his father.

428
00:35:39,283 --> 00:35:40,313
That's never gone away.

429
00:35:40,313 --> 00:35:42,304
Yeah.

430
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,992
but we're much better co -parents than we were as husband and wife.

431
00:35:47,675 --> 00:35:49,015
exactly, exactly.

432
00:35:49,015 --> 00:35:52,795
My kids have said to me, like, Mom, I don't know how Dad.

433
00:35:52,995 --> 00:35:57,745
Well, I remember my daughter saying to me once, I don't want to go to Dad's, Mom.

434
00:35:57,745 --> 00:36:07,995
Like, we always have macaroni and cheese on Tuesday nights, and we always have pizza on
Fridays, and we eat at 530.

435
00:36:07,995 --> 00:36:15,175
And I'm like, look, you know with me, we could be eating anytime between 5 and 9.

436
00:36:15,195 --> 00:36:17,357
And it could be a bowl of cereal.

437
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:25,507
So this is a really important life skill you're learning to be exposed to two very
different ways of being.

438
00:36:25,647 --> 00:36:27,579
It's okay, it's good for you.

439
00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:32,323
You love him, you go and spend time with him, right?

440
00:36:32,323 --> 00:36:37,177
She was trying to get out of going to her dad's because it was boring and I'm like, no
way.

441
00:36:37,178 --> 00:36:39,339
But yeah, very different people.

442
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:40,386
it...

443
00:36:40,386 --> 00:36:41,952
a different way to look at it.

444
00:36:46,744 --> 00:36:47,365
my goodness.

445
00:36:47,365 --> 00:36:49,546
Well, Kim, thank you so much.

446
00:36:49,546 --> 00:36:54,289
Folks, check out her quiz in the show notes.

447
00:36:54,289 --> 00:36:56,171
And thank you so much, Kim.

448
00:36:56,171 --> 00:36:57,551
This is such a great conversation.

449
00:36:57,551 --> 00:37:09,479
And I hope that there's some women out there that this will help at least have them feel
better about maybe taking that leap if that's what they need to do.

450
00:37:10,724 --> 00:37:11,476
Exactly.

451
00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:16,709
And thank you for helping to spread the word because it is really important.

452
00:37:16,854 --> 00:37:17,744
It is.

453
00:37:17,825 --> 00:37:18,625
is.

454
00:37:18,866 --> 00:37:22,079
Your kids only have one childhood, but we only have one adulthood too.

455
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:26,203
So, you you matter just as much as your children do.

456
00:37:26,203 --> 00:37:29,917
Because if you're happier, they're going to be happier as well.

457
00:37:29,917 --> 00:37:31,788
So, all good.

458
00:37:31,788 --> 00:37:32,399
All right.

459
00:37:32,399 --> 00:37:33,660
Thanks, Kim.

460
00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:36,643
And thank you everybody for listening today.

461
00:37:36,643 --> 00:37:37,994
Take care, everyone.