336. From the Battlefield to Beckley Retreats: Neil Markey’s Transformative Journey

Hey there, I'm Sandee Sgarlata and welcome to the Happiness Solved podcast. Twice a week, we explore the journey to finding true happiness by sharing inspiring stories, practical tips, and insightful conversations with some of today's leading experts. But we don't just scratch the surface. We dive deep into the real grit of what it takes to live a genuinely happy life.

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Neal, such a pleasure to have you on today and So funny that like you live right down the street from me and I love that when I talk to people, I'm like, darn, we could have done this in person. Yeah, we should have, we could have gone and done it in a park somewhere or something. Right, right, right.  Yeah, so, um, for those who aren't familiar with Neil Markey, he's the co founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats, which is dedicated to promoting the science backed benefits of psychedelics and holistic well being. 

So. I love talking with people. It's interesting because the more and more that psychedelics are starting to get back into mainstream  and and and it looks like we're on some like course correction here, right? Because they really  shouldn't have been classified as the way they were classified to begin with.

Right. But, um, so before we dive into that, you're also a former captain in the U. S. Army Special Operations 2nd Ranger Battalion. Um, so first of all, thank you for your service. I'm so grateful for you. Um, you served in Iraq and I, and Afghanistan, and then you went to Columbia University. So  all like amazing on paper. 

However, I'm guessing there's a lot more to your story than, than just that. And, uh, there's probably a reason that you've, you know, chosen to dive into the science, um, behind psychedelics and whatnot. So, can you just give us an idea of your story? You know, you can go into as much detail as you want. Um, Because I'm guessing it has to do with your, your, your service to this country has kind of put you in this situation or assisted true.

It's true. Yeah, it's been a windy road.  Well, I guess I'll give you the short I was at University of Maryland, just down the road here, doing my undergrad, and then September 11 happened.  And that struck something in me.  Um, you could actually see the smoke from the Pentagon, um, at the top of the football stadium. 

Next thing you know, I ended up doing ROTC, um, and then joined the service. I thought I was helping. I, if you remember that weapons of mass destruction  We had to go get Saddam or he was going to get us. Well, by the time I got through school and got through training and got to Iraq, we had learned that that wasn't all bullshit.

Um, so that was pretty tough.  Um, and then I got a chance to go try out for the ranger regiment and I was, with the Rangers for two deployments to Afghanistan. And, you know, I was more on the support side and I was an officer. So I was one step removed from the worst of it, but it definitely left some marks on me.

I mean, now looking back. How could it not? The entire unit had severe PTSD and I had a really bad jump in training one time where I hit my head really hard. So I had one of these traumatic brain injuries on top of the  challenging environment. Um, you know, it was just really, some really tough years. And then  I got out in  2012 and went to grad school.

And by, you know, some measures was doing really well. I was at a good school, um, and was getting, you know, good, good job offers, but I was, I was struggling. I was isolating and, um,  cycling through different SSRIs and anti anxiety medications. And.  I got introduced to meditation that was super  impactful for me.

It was kind of right on time, right. What I needed. And then I had a couple, uh, underground, but professionally facilitated psychedelic experiences. And those were, uh, life changing. Um, now there's been, you know, 12 years between there and  today, but that was kind of the beginning of me realizing that there was something quite special in these kind of alternative. 

Modalities that I'll actually, you know, some people have been using for thousands of years without pause, you know, it's just the developed world. That's forgot about them, but it's coming back. It's coming back, right? Right. Exactly.  Wow. So  let's, let's just take a side,  do a side note first, and I want to come back to the benefits that you've received, but can you just explain to the audience?

Cause, cause. I kind of talked about this on a very high level on another episode. Um, I spoke with,  uh, the gentleman who wrote the book, uh, Paul Austin. Um, he wrote a book on micro dosing. So I, I talked with him just last week, I believe.  And, um, and we just kind of glossed over it, but can you give the audience just a little bit of education?

And, and, and, and you know, so I'm going to cut to, uh, Uh, to kind of explain what I, what I mentioned at the beginning. Where  were on a course, correct. And how,  how back in the seventies,  psychedelics were classified as a very strong,  uh, schedule one wasn't schedule one. Schedule one, yeah. Schedule one, narcotic.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. There was a lot of research happening up until that point because  Psychiatrists, medical professionals, researchers saw that there was something quite profound here.  Um,  you know, no one ever thought that they were for everything or for everybody and without risk. But they, without question, you know, should be, you know, explored.

But then the whole war on drug thing happened. And yeah, the United States ended up classifying mushrooms, MDMA, um, you know, a lot of the classic psychedelics as schedule one, which basically says there's no known benefit, um, at all. So it's the same bucket as you, as, um, methamphetamine or heroin. Um,  Um, and so that shut down a lot of the research, you know, it was very hard to get any approvals.

Well, also marijuana. Marijuana was also put into Schedule 1. Yeah, which is really, really, really wild. And then, because a lot of the world follows the United States in terms of these public policy decisions, a lot of the world, through the UN, enacted  Their own policy, which restricted  use of these compounds.

So there was this kind of dark period from, you know, the mid seventies until quite recently, um, where all the use and a lot of the research was really on the fringes. And, um, you know, many of us that grew up in the,  um, you know,  late half, you know, the later part of the last century  were brought up in a world where, you know, it was like the dare that don't use drugs kind of environment.

And I think that, um,  in some ways we got indoctrinated into thinking that, that these compounds were like the boogeyman and they're, they're not, they're just not, you know, I mean, there's risk to them, but if you do, uh, you know, compare them to the risk of, you know, Many other activities we do on a daily basis, you know, and compare the, the risk to the potential upside.

Um, again, they're not for everyone. They're not for everything. Um, but there's, there's something quite significant here that I think is going to change how we think about mental health and how we think about holistic wellbeing globally, you know, over the next  bit of time. 

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Well, I tried to Google it really quickly and I, I  have some typos in it, so it's not really coming up, but, but what I had understood is that it was a very, it was more politically driven  to, to, to have psychedelics and marijuana, you know, made class one because of the,  the hippie revolution where they were anti war.

Yeah.  And wanting to put a lot of blacks in jail because they were the mayor, they had all the marijuana, they were smoking the weed and the hippies were using the LSD and they didn't like any of that. So, so that's the cliff notes version, folks, you can Google it. There's a whole story behind it. And it was literally done for political reasons, but we don't talk politics here.

So.  Yeah. Well, the good news is that things are shifting. Yes, exactly. I think the tides have turned. So, yeah, for sure. So, so after you said you did an underground, which, you know, there's, there's very few places right now in the United States where you can legally obtain psychedelics.  So you said you did like an underground assisted  type situation.

What were the effects that you noticed right away? Was there anything that you're like, Oh, wow, this is different. Yeah. Um,  it was like a body kind of central nervous system level reset. And, um,  I describe it as like, my whole being was almost like a bunch of rubber bands that were just twisted and extended almost to the point where some of them were like snapping.

It was just this tension. I was walking around with my fists clenched,  you know, literally, and. Metaphorically in this kind of state of fight or flight. Now,  a lot of people that knew me probably didn't know it because, you know, you can hide a lot of things. And I think that's a big insight for me too, is you meet someone, you know, you have no idea what's going on internally for that person, you know?

So it's important for us to all have that kind of empathy because there's a lot of, a lot of pain out there, but, um, Yeah. It just was like my body released. It just was  like a sigh that had been building for 20 years. Just,  um,  and you know, but it, it, in some ways it was a permanent thing. Like, I don't think I ever went back to  as wound as I was, but, you know, by the time you, you know, once you've had a lot of traumatic experiences and you've gotten to be Older in life, a lot of that kind of way of being gets pretty worn in,  you know, there's a lot of momentum there.

And so it's not just like a one and done. And then all of a sudden magically you're like fixed. And, and so for me, it's been quite a process. I think I'm still in this process. And I think that, you know, it really is more about trying to figure out a different way to live and figuring out, um, different habits and like learning how to take better care of yourself, you know, and so that takes, that takes time.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So  you decided that you were going to,  um, have a retreat,  a Beckley retreat. So talk about that because is it in multiple locations or is it just in the Netherlands? It's in Jamaica in the Netherlands. And, um, I'm in the, so it was 2012 I was in grad school. And then 2015,  I graduated in that period of time.

Okay.  I got to experiment with a lot of different long form programs, meditation retreats and  different, you know, plant retreats and,  and was  learning a lot on my own. And then, um, actually went back and did a teacher certification in meditation at Jefferson University was teaching meditation and the intelligence agencies and to business people.

And a lot of my symptoms were gone. I was doing really well. And then  the kind of a pivot point for me was I had been deferring this job offer with McKinsey and company.  And I asked them for another deferral and they said, no, and I ended up going there and I had this stint of six years in the corporate world between McKinsey and this private equity role.

Um, where now with the benefit of hindsight, I realized my mental health actually started going the wrong way after making so much progress. And now I know it's because it was bad work environments, you know, and even though I knew better, I got kind of caught up in the hypermaterialism and, um, not taking good care of myself.

And a lot of my symptoms. kind of over six years started coming back. And I also saw those same symptoms in a lot of my peers. Who weren't war veterans, they were executives, um, but they were using alcohol and troubled relationships and having trouble sleeping, you know, all these things, you know, um, and so about four years ago, I left  not really knowing what I was going to do, but I just knew that I wasn't going to do that anymore.

It's like, I'd been well before. I had kind of lost my way and I was like, okay, I'm going to reset. And I got back to teaching meditation. Um,  and then I met this woman, Amanda Fielding, who's  the executive director and founder of the Beckley foundation, which is one of the world's leading research nonprofits for psychedelics.

Um, she's been working on this for her entire life  for literally like over 60 years, she's been working on this and she's just like real amazing woman that's Um, accomplished so much and has done it in such a admirable way, I would say, and her and her family,  um,  were seeing that the world was opening up and more people were interested in these experiences.

And we're seeing that it was a bit of the wild, wild west right now. And, you know, it was gray area and underground offerings and, you know, this big safety concern. And so they're like, can we.  You know, create an organization that gives people safe access to these experiences and do it like at a really professional level and do it, you know, in a more integrative approach, like teach people how to take better care of themselves alongside of giving them these transformational experiences.

You're going to get more out of them and you're going to decrease risk. And so.  We got connected,  you know, four years ago and then founded Beckley Retreats. So Amanda started the Beckley Foundation. There's a couple other Beckley organizations and then we founded Beckley Retreats together, which is these long form,  um, nature based community programs.

And, um, yeah, we have operations in Jamaica and the Netherlands because it's fully legal there. We can be insured and everything's above board. We know where the mushrooms come from. We test the mushrooms. There's no shady business going on. And  we really value that. We think that's important. So people can feel very at peace and, um, really relax into the experience. 

Yeah. And, and I,  you mentioned it's, it's assisted and the reason it's assisted is because,  well, there may be generic guidelines that, you know, if you take this much, this is what you'll experience.  And there's different levels.  Each individual is going to experience it differently. And, uh, so it's important to have somebody there with you,  um, to help you and guide you. 

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,  you know, mushrooms, um, are, are quite safe. There are risks. There's people that probably should not be taking. Mushrooms, we can kind of talk through some of those, um, the things we know related to that. Um, but yeah, I mean, if  the amount matters a lot, but if you do take a big, a larger amount, which is what you would see, like in a clinical trial.

Um, which is where, you know, we can see a lot of the benefit. It can be a scary experience because you're kind of, your reality shifts in a way it's never shifted before. And so it's just important to be in, you know, they call it set setting, but to be in the right place with the right people and have done the right lead up,  you know, so that you can kind of get the most out of it.

And you're not in a position where you're regretting taking the mushrooms because you're, you know, you're not, you're not, um, prepared. But it's, it's, it's, um,  it's like the prep and the things it's like relatively simple, you know, it's not complex, but there is a process, you know, you just need, there's certain things you need to do and then you can have a, you know, a managed experience.

Um, but that doesn't mean it won't be challenging. A lot of people do have challenging experiences, but there's a difference between like a traumatic experience that you regret and wish you never would have done and experience that like. you know, requires some effort and feels like some work, but there's some benefit to it.

And you're glad that you did it at the end of it, you know, there's a difference there.  Right. So if somebody like, what if, you know, that would be a fear of someone, um, for example,  when I was 19 years old,  I tried, um, a half Me and my girlfriend, we split a dose of LSD, right?  And it was a wonderful experience, right?

Um,  we, we were, we weren't doing it for medicinal reasons. It was, it was really let, let's party. This was back in 1986.  No, probably 80, 84, 85, something like that. I'm trying to remember.  And it was a great, I mean, we just laughed and laughed and laughed. And I never tried it a second time because I had heard stories of people having such bad experiences.

So I never did it again. I'm like, you know what? Do it once. It's fine. Do it a second time. It could be bad. I'm not going to try it. I was never really into drugs until I found cocaine. And then that's a whole nother story and hit rock bottom using cocaine in the late eighties. But, um, anyway,  so.  If somebody has that fear, can you explain how by doing it at one of your retreats  would help somebody and facilitate them to ease them and help them to feel more comfortable?

Should they  start having an experience that  they would may regret had they not been on their own? You know, if they were by themselves, it would be really bad. But by having a person with you, it's going to help ease that.  Yeah. Um, so, I mean, we think about this kind of throughout the entire program. Our programs are, you know, there's a digital preparation portion, then there's the on site portion, then there's a digital follow up, and it starts with screening,  and so we make sure that folks that are coming on our programs are good fits. 

And so, we screen out kind of more severe indications.  Not that you can't get benefit from these experiences for treatment resistant depression or PTSD. It's just, we're not set up to do that. And we have to manage for a positive group dynamic. And, you know, we have things configured a certain way. So we need people that are generally well, and now everybody's got their stuff, you know, that's, Part of being human and why people come, but, you know, we do a screening to make sure that we think that you're a good, good, good fit.

And then a lot of it's in the prep. I mean, you know, you've got a month before you come down where, um, you're doing a lot of this, you know, Western psychotherapy type work. Um, you're getting you to meditate. We're getting, teaching you different breathing exercises. Um, you're learning, you know, about the research and the mechanics of it.

So, because we know from medicine that kind of mental buy in matters, you know, so getting people to understand  what's happening a bit and like really believe and what's going on is, is part of it, right? You see this. Pretty profound. And like the placebo effect, you know, just like belief, um, has a, has a really meaningful impact.

So we kind of, there's this like very thoughtful approach to help you get.  More prepared and get more of what we would call kind of a mind body alignment before the session. And then the session, you know, the set and setting, um,  you know, our properties are away from everything. It's a very peaceful environment.

You can go have these experiences, other places where there may be a wedding next door or something, you know, but ours are, it's thoughtfully, you know, we choose them and nature matters, you know, you're kind of you're off grid with us. And so. We've removed all that. Um, you get to spend a lot of time with your facilitators and the, you know, you get to know them in the prep and then you get to spend time with them on site.

And I think we are, um, fortunate to have Amanda and her legacy that.  Um, and we pay well, you know, so like part of our model, um, but we've get, we've got some of the best facilitators out there and they've seen every permutation of all these experiences can go so they know what to do and then, you know, we are, uh,  There's like amazing kind of  more mom and pop operations out there that do a great job. 

You know, but I would say one thing that's a bit different for us is, you know, we're  a bit of a larger organization that it's just like a bit more professionalized we have. standard operating procedures. We have training. We take our facilitators through that. If this happens, they know these are the next steps.

It's just like, it's a well run operation, um, with team members that have been doing this work for a long time and kind of know what to do. And there's, you know, all the considerations in place.  Um, from a medical perspective, there's always at least a nurse on site, um, and we have, you know, plans to get to folks to medical facilities if it's needed.

You know, it's, you know, you're more likely to twist your ankle or something going on a nature hike than need medical attention for something that was related to the ceremony.  Um,  and  also from safety, I mean, it's, it's also common  for folks to,  you know, have an experience and then there'll be a point where, um, there'll be like a, kind of a big  energetic release of sorts, like they could be crying or they could, you know, um,  People could yell or be a bit scared.

And again, our facilitators, they've done this so many times. They just know there's a point where it's best for that person.  To go with a facilitator or two facilitators and we take them to an alternate location for a bit of time because what can happen is  that individual will get in their head and they'll be like I'm bothering the group, you know, and then they'll collapse and really what you want is to just like, let it, let it go, you know, like, that's why we're here.

So we have plans for all that. And generally that person just needs to kind of go outside, be by themselves for a little while with a facilitator for a minute,  you know, let it, let it go for a minute and then they can come back in. But it's all kind of like, we have playbooks for it and we practice it and we've done it before.

Um, and then,  um, you know, on the back end, the safety continues, like, you know, doing good follow up and Based on the screening, making sure that we've asked all the right questions and people have everything they need in place and, um, have good resources. If they feel like they need some additional help.

So it's just kind of being thoughtful through the whole.  Through the whole, um, program.  Nice.  Wow. Sounds incredible.  Okay. It sounds incredible. And sign me up because I, I would love to  experience that. Yeah. It's really beautiful. It is. Yeah. So I had heard someone say that it's kind of like,  not so much with micro dosing, but when you do the, the, the macro dosing or  a higher level dose, that it can be equivalent to like years of therapy. 

Yeah, um,  you know, people say that I think that if someone has that experience, um,  you know, who is anyone else to say that it's not right. I think that,  you know, we might be setting people up for some disappointment.  Because I think really what's happening with these experiences is they're opening things up, but then you've got to do some work with that, you know?

So I think that we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we think that we can kind of just take these mindlessly and then we're going to bam, we're,  And we're healed. That's not, that's not a good mindset. It's actually these compounds they do. They're they're profound and they can, they can really open things up, but you have to kind of meet them halfway, you know, and they're going to,  they have this, this really, you know, You know profound way we don't understand the mechanics, but they have this way of bringing things in our past  Deep like in our psyche to the surface in some ways and then you need to do something with that, you know But there's a light on the other side so but you know after the experiences there can be some you know can be a bit doors disorienting because you're getting confronted with stuff that maybe you've tucked away and it was nicely tucked away for a while.

It was kind of seeping through, seeping up into your relationships and how you're showing up. And now it's right there. Now it's, you can't deny it. And so, but in that new awareness, Then you can, you can, you can maneuver through it and you can develop a new relationship with it instead of just pretending like it's not there and tucking it away.

But there's, there's challenge in all that, right? But it's for most, it's like very worth it. It's like very, very worth it.  Well, I always say in order to grow, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And so at the very least, this is going to, this is going to bring that uncomfortable shit to the surface. 

Yeah. And you're  Your force not, I don't want to use force as a strong word, but you're given the opportunity and the choice. Okay, here it is. It's come up again. Now, now I have a choice to make as to what I'm going to do with this. And, and, and it's still your responsibility like, yeah, because I'm glad you phrased it like that because we are.

in a society and the whole world has turned into this instant gratification. I want it now take this pill for that. Take this shot to lose weight to, you know,  okay. You know, that's, that's not reality. Like we, we still have to do a lot of the work and yeah. And uh, yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. 

Cause yeah, there, there are no quick fixes. And, uh, I, I know I've been on this path for almost 35 years  and, uh, every year I'm like, I thought I dealt with that. Oh, okay. Nope. Here it is.  It's back. It's back. Well, you know, and you know, I've seen with my own eyes, um,  people have like radically Positive  shifts, you know, so it's possible, um, to have that.

And the reality is, is like life doesn't stop coming at us, you know what I mean? It's not  it's so it's almost learning another, it's just kind of like continuing to learn. new ways to live and how to take better care of ourselves. And that process never ends, you know, it's not an end state. It's just like  happiness is not a pursuit.

It's not a destination. It's a journey. It's a practice, right? The practice. And  You know, it's interesting, you know, I, I just mentioned that, you know, take this shot to lose weight. I know so many people that are using that drug, which is amazing, right? I mean, it's, if, if it helps  and all they're doing is eating less and that's why they're losing weight.

So you do that without. an injection, right? Right.  But you know, you still, you know, you still got to take action. Yeah. And, and if you lose weight, the knees are going to feel better. The back's going to feel better. You're going to feel mentally better about yourself, but it's still, you have to work towards it.

It's not going to happen overnight. And, and our mindset is the same thing. You know, it's, uh, we have to work through these and you have to be patient  and, and make it a priority because it's your choice, right? At the end of the day, you have a choice. Right. And this is one method. Um, I know I, I have a form.

I always say a form of PTSD. Like, I have to apologize for it or something that, like I, for so many years, PTSD was, that was only reserved. for people who were at war  and people who saw horrible things. That's what people. So, so I still like, okay, well, I have a little bit of PTSD, but you know what, when you go through something traumatic, it's our, my pain is no different than anybody's pain.

It's just, I always feel  some sort of, um,  like I don't have the right, because I didn't.  I wasn't involved in war and that that word is only reserved for war heroes and whatnot. Right. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And,  um,  there's not a lot of benefit in comparing trauma because it's all contextual and individual.

And I've had time, you know, like I, I did go to war, but my war experiences weren't as bad as a lot of my buddies. So then I'm like, uh,  but yeah, yeah, everybody, it's the human condition. Everybody's got some stuff. And if you don't, you probably have some stuff from your grandparents that we know now is buried in there too.

So it's all, we've all got it, you know, in there to different degrees.  You can't escape it. You know, you can't, it's going to be there. So Neil, this has been such an amazing conversation and thank you so much for coming on. And, and this, this is one of those episodes where, you know, this isn't going to be for everybody, right?

It's not going to be for everybody. And it just may be for somebody it may help. And I like to give my audience every Option out there. Great. Um, to help. So  yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think, um,  it's worth exploring. You know, it's not for everyone. It's not for everything, but for people that are looking to, you know, let things go or find more clarity or become more empathetic, improve their relationships.

Some of the research around psychedelics and the sense of awe is so fascinating. You know, I mean, we are living in this like miraculous world, like moment to moment, if you think about the complexity of things, but most of the times we're just running along and not paying any attention to it. But these experiences can help people just like, you know, sit in the marvel of  this incredible world that we're living in.

And that's, that's great. You know, when you feel that when you feel that, wow, this is really special, what We're all experiencing. Um, so there's tremendous amount of benefit that, um, can come out of these experiences if they're done in the right way. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about that I haven't brought up?

Before we finish up. Um,  well, just that, you know, we're, uh, a small company with a lot of good hearted people and happy to find time to connect one on one or we do these group calls because I know that, um, you know, folks usually have a lot of questions. So we're here and we're happy to, you know, um, find time to, you know, answer any questions that people might have.

And, um, Yeah, if I'd, uh, I'd love to hear from some of your, um, audience at some point. So where would they reach out to you if they wanted to, um, connect with you individually? Yeah, it's, my email is just neil@beckleyretreats.com.  And then if they have more, just like kind of logistics types questions.

Um, welcome at Beckley retreats. com.  And if you go to the website, I think it's a really, you know, um, it's a good site that has a lot of good information and you can download our program guides. You can schedule a one on one call with one of our facilitators. Um, you can read about the research. You can read more about how amazing Amanda is.

Um, and yeah, we're here, we're here to help. So let us know. Awesome. Well thank you so much. This has been so informative and I know that the audience will find it as well. And if, if it's not something you need, hopefully this will help somebody that you know. So  . Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Alright, thank you Neil.

And thank you everyone for listening today and don't forget to review and like us. And follow me on social media. Thanks so much, everyone.