271. How to Turn Triggers into Teachable Moments in Your Relationship with Dr. Avigail Lev

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Dr. Abby Lev. So excited to see you today. I'm happy. How are you?

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Yeah. So you're traveling right now. You're normally from San Francisco, but you're on the east coast right now. Just on. Yes, yes.

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Doing a little bit of traveling around at the you. Good for you. So for the audience, Dr. Abby is a psychotherapist, author, mediator and international speaker and executive coach. And you're based in San Francisco and you're the director of the Bay Area CBT center, which is a clinic that specializes in cognitive behavior therapy to help individuals and couples break their unhelpful patterns, develop healthier habits, and improve all areas of life.

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And you've got three books, which we can talk about as well. And you've been featured all over the place. Love it, love it, love it. So excited for this conversation, because it isn't that often. I get to talk to specialists in the field.

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And when we're talking about couples and having those conversations and working on that relationship, whether it's with your partner, your friend, yourself, your colleagues, it's such an important conversation, especially in today's world. What do you want to start out with when it comes to that whole conversation? Yeah. Well, I specialize in using schemas in my work with couples, and schemas are core beliefs that we have about ourselves and others. And Jeffrey Young actually came up with schema therapy, and I use his basic eleven schemas.

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There are an abandonment schema as an example, an emotional deprivation schema, a self sacrifice schema. There's a perfectionism schema, an entitlement schema, a subjugation schema. So there's eleven schemas that I work with that show up interpersonally, and I find them to be very helpful in working with individuals and couples. I have a schema questionnaire on my website. And when we're able to help people understand their schemas are core beliefs and relationships.

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So when a schema gets triggered, it triggers automatic thoughts, feelings, sensations, a whole experience with that schema. And then also when we look at the schema questionnaire, there are certain triangles of schemas, like your top three or four schemas, that could show possible other things, like it could show anxious attachment or avoidant attachment, or maybe hints of narcissism or borderline. And so there's a lot of information that you can get about a person just by understanding their core beliefs and certain sets of core beliefs together. When you said that, I didn't realize that was like a thing and that there was a test you could take for it. And that's so important because I know, and we talked just very briefly before we started recording.

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I know for me personally, as you were going through it, I'm like, yes, been there, been there, been there, talked about that, because we all have so much trauma that we carry from our childhood. Right. But it's also, like, for me and my listeners know I'm an open book. I had very traumatic upbringing, lots of abandonment, lots of death. My biological father died, my brother died.

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There was a lot of physical abuse, verbal abuse. Ended up marrying into a toxic relationship. And then what happened is when I met my husband that I've been married to now for almost nine years, it was interesting because when we would get into some sort of discussion or have an issue, we've never really fought all of those core beliefs from my upbringing and from my other relationships, romantic relationships, and my ex husband would surface. And I was expecting him to respond in a way that I was used to being responded to. And he gave it a title, which I'm not going to repeat, but he's like, you're having this ism right now.

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He would hold my hands and he'd say, that's not me. And he helped me to really heal that core belief because I just expected every, especially men, for me, it was all men. I expected every man to treat me like that and to react that way. And it was a huge thing. And he's not a psychotherapist.

00:07:30
I mean, he just figured it out, basically. Did. He started the work that I'm going to describe to you. Basically, he's very wise. When we have certain core beliefs, we then learn coping behaviors to deal with those beliefs.

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And those very coping behaviors end up recreating and confirming those beliefs. So if I'm afraid of abandonment and then when I get triggered and I think someone's leaving me, I start seeking excessive reassurance or maybe attacking, right? Going, where have you been becoming needy? Who are you with? Are you going to leave me if I do these behaviors that I've learned as a way to cope with this abandonment, I could create a self fulfilling prophecy that confirms the very thing that I fear.

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And so what your partner did was exactly the right thing. The beginning of the work, which is acknowledging that you're triggered, and then there's a moment, actually, where you could have an emotionally restorative experience. And I actually see a lot of people online on social media and TikTok and these kinds of things. They talk about rewiring your brain, and they say you could tap your brain and you could this and that, and rewiring, you could just sit there and meditate, and all of this will rewire your brain. It doesn't.

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None of that rewires your brain. What rewires your brain is exactly what you described. It's having a different experience while in a triggered state with another human being who disconfirms our core beliefs. And having enough of those experiences then rewires our brain. Yeah, because it took a couple of years, right?

00:09:19
Because when we're talking about, and I only mention that to emphasize that this work is a practice, right. It takes time. And it's not just one or two. It was multiple conversations. And he stuck by me, thank God.

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And it was a long process. And I can say to this day, it's still, sometimes things come up, but because of that awareness, I'm like, okay, wait a second. And I've recognized it. And I had to have a talk with myself a couple of years ago. I'm like, you know what?

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I don't want to show up in this way with my husband. I don't want to show up like this any longer. And I really made a conscious effort because that's really what it takes. Yeah. It's about understanding the whole experience, the thoughts, the feelings, the sensations, making friends with each aspect of this.

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Because when we could tolerate and get curious about that moment of trigger, then we have the space to choose new behaviors based on our values. And then when we do those new behaviors, we create more opportunities to disconfirm those beliefs. I want to go back to what you just said to make sure that the audience understands what you're talking about, because I get it. But you said you want to make friends with that. Can you explain that?

00:10:45
I understand what you're talking about, but I was introduced to that just a few years ago about making friends with fear and making friends with. Can you just dive into that a little bit more? And how our brain reacts when we're looking at it from that perspective? Sure. Human beings, our inclination is to avoid anything uncomfortable.

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So if I have a core belief that gets triggered, then every single thought, feeling, and sensation that comes up after that trigger is connected to that core belief and every fiber of my being, all of us then wants to avoid it. So if I feel I'm going to be abandoned, I'm going to try to do anything I can to get rid of the idea that I'm going to be abandoned. Maybe I'm going to go, where have you been? Do you still love me? Are you with somebody else?

00:11:35
Everything I could do. And the more I try to avoid that experience, if I want to avoid the sensations, the feelings, if I want to avoid fear or a knot in my throat, or like a tightness in my belly, the more I avoid it, the less space I have to do something different. In that moment, I don't have a choice. In that moment, I'm behaving automatically. I'm reacting rather than responding.

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Now, when we could label what particular core belief is triggered for us in that moment, we then practice a lot of skills that involve slowing the whole thing down. Almost like we're watching a movie in slow motion. Okay, identify what are the feelings that I'm feeling? What are the thoughts that my mind is telling me? What schema are these thoughts connected to?

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And then we make space for the experience in our body. Where am I feeling this most intensely? In my body right now. How intense is it from zero to 100, we could ask, what color is it? What size is it?

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What shape is it? We could put our hand on our heart and say, it makes sense that I feel ashamed. It makes sense that I feel scared. When we identify our feelings, it also gives us information about our needs. Our feelings and our needs are two sides of the same coin.

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If I feel alone, maybe I need connection. If I feel hurt, maybe I need understanding. So, from labeling our feelings, we also start understanding what our needs are in relationships and from the place of slowing it down and not trying to get rid of our pain. But rather than move away from pain, we start moving towards our values and what we want to be about. Maybe I want to be assertive when I feel afraid, or maybe I want to be curious when I feel angry.

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And when we bring these values into the forefront during this moment of trigger, when we're able to slow it down and then bring some self compassion to it, when we're regulating ourselves rather than wanting the other person to regulate us, we're not going regulate. My schema is regulate. We regulate. And then we go, what am I needing from this person? What do I want to be about?

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And what am I needing? And in that experience, we then create opportunities to have those core beliefs disconfirmed. We also create opportunities where they can be confirmed. But when we're acting in our values and we're being the person we want to be, if we see that confirmation, we have a choice. We could see it's not you, it's that relationship.

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And then we could make choices about whether this is the best relationship for us or not. Yeah, I love it. And I still occasionally it surfaces. And I know that a lot of people go for this, and I'm wondering what it stems from. And that is, you have this conversation with your partner, something's being triggered, and.

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You want to leave. You just want to get out. Where does that come from? Yes. That comes from fight or flight or freeze, right?

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So when we are in a state of threat or fear, we have our automatic way of responding. Some of us want to continue to fight. Some of us want to be out of there. And some of us are just frozen or even fawning, just doing whatever we can to please the other person to get through it. Now, in reality, I say to all my couples, if you're triggered over a 75 or an 80%, like, if you notice that you're triggered on that level, the best thing to do is to take a break.

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And taking a break is very different from fleeing, taking a break, letting your partner know, I'm so triggered, I'm deeply in fight or flight. Like, my nervous system is not going to be able to have a coherent conversation with you right now. Let's take a time out for 20 minutes, and we will fill out our nonviolent communication formulas, and we will come back to this moment in 20 minutes while each of us has regulated our nervous systems, checked in and identified our feelings, needs, and what our requests are. And then they come back when they are more regulated and calmer. So it's really important to distinguish between fleeing, just stonewalling your partner, and leaving, versus getting really good at noticing when you're so dysregulated that trying to have problem solve, it's not the moment to do problem solving, it's the moment to take space.

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You always want to be clear with your partner on when you will come back, and you want to have rules for what you do on a time out. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because what I've learned now, being in my second marriage is it all comes down to communication. It's 1000% communication.

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Because if you've got that open dialogue and you feel safe, and that's the other thing that I also learned. You have to feel safe with that other person. So having said that, what are ways in which people can help make each other safe when you're having these quote air quotes, difficult conversations?

00:17:00
Yeah. I think it is all about communication. And what that means is sometimes when we're communicating, we're communicating with a willing participant. And a willing participant is not somebody that gives us whatever we want, but it's somebody that's willing to meet our underlying needs. So if I have a need for affection and I go, would you be willing to give me a hug?

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And they say, no. Would you be willing to give me a kiss? No. Would you be willing to give me a back rub? No.

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Would you be willing to do thumb wrestling? No. I still don't know whether I have a willing participant or not. I could say, hey, I really have a need for affection. What could we negotiate for me to get my need met?

00:17:44
For affection? Meaning needs are general, and the request is very specific, a specific way to get that need met. And a willing participant is someone who's willing to negotiate the underlying need. Kind of like the Rolling Stones say. It's like you don't always get what you want, but you could still get what you need.

00:18:04
And so what's important is to really assess whether you have a willing participant or not. Sometimes people think it's a communication issue. When it's not a communication issue, it's an issue of somebody not being a willing participant. Sometimes assume that somebody is communicating to deescalate, to resolve conflict, to find solutions. But there are some people that are not communicating for that purpose.

00:18:31
Some people prefer escalation, chaos, hurt, drama. Some people are not always having the same agenda. And so when you're communicating, you want to use. I love the nonviolent communication formula because it creates a very structured approach for when this happened, I felt this. I need this.

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This is the underlying need. And would you be willing? And when we make a request, we're very flexible with our request. So we have to be open to getting that need met in many different ways. But we stay very rigid on the need.

00:19:07
We do not let go of our underlying need. That's what we're negotiating. Often couples think they're negotiating the request. It's kind of like they don't go, would you be willing to do the dishes? Can you do the dishes?

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I don't want to do the dishes. You don't love me. You don't care. Why don't you do the dishes? You always want me to do the dishes.

00:19:25
This is not negotiating underlying needs. Maybe the underlying need is fairness or cooperation or collaboration. Maybe the underlying need here is autonomy, independence, fairness. And so when you're actually listening to the person's needs, then communication is completely different. And I really, truly believe that most of the time we can reach win win scenarios.

00:19:52
I love it. I love how you explain things because you're using the scientific and what I would call, for lack of a better. Term, just common sense. Really?

00:20:08
Yeah, for sure. All right, so you've got three books that are all based on strengthening relationships. I'd love to dive into, because we don't have time to talk about all three, but I'd love to talk a little bit more about the one book. Let's see. It's called acceptance and commitment therapy for couples.

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Can you talk a little bit about what that entails. Yeah. So that book we talk about first the schemas, and we help people identify their schemas. Okay, I can't tell you how powerful these schemas are. Meaning, if I have a couple that comes to me for therapy and they just email me their schema questionnaires, I could look at their schemas and I could tell them 90% of the patterns in their relationship.

00:21:00
There are certain schemas that really go together. Like someone who has a self sacrifice schema can tend to have schema chemistry with someone with an entitlement schema, or often someone with a perfectionism schema can be in a relationship with someone who has a failure schema or a defectiveness shame schema. There's these ways that these schemas are kind of attracted to one another, these kind of opposing schemas. So first we label the pattern in the relationship. Then we label the thoughts, feelings, sensations, the whole internal experience.

00:21:32
And then I help couples identify their values and their relationships. And the values are the barometer. Every single behavior that they do in the relationship, we bring back to values. Is this a behavior that you did that moves you towards a set of values? Being kind, being generous, being cooperative?

00:21:53
Or is it about moving away from schema pain? For example, did you say, yes, I'm happy to go see this movie with you, because you're feeling generous and cooperative? Or did you say that because you don't want to be abandoned, or you don't want to feel guilty? And so every choice that we make, we work on, is this moving you towards the kind of partner you want to be, or did you do that behavior as a way to avoid pain? And we help people then make friends with that pain.

00:22:25
So we work with thoughts. You make space for thoughts. You make distance from thoughts. I teach clients skills, so the skills include mindfulness and certain diffusion techniques, techniques to help you change your relationship with your mind so that your mind has less influence, your thoughts, have less influence on your actions, and you have distance from them. You could watch them, and they don't influence your actions.

00:22:52
And then I help couples also learn how to regulate their own emotions, label their emotions, and change their relationship with feelings as well as sensations. So we do somatic techniques to help regulate the nervous system and to help make space for difficult sensations in the body, because the more space you have for the difficult sensations, the more behavioral freedom you have in that moment. And then I help couples also learn how to regulate each other's nervous system and learn how to help make each other feel safe and meet each other's needs in a very interdependent way. Not in a way where you make the other person responsible for making you feel safe, but in a way where there's a level of interdependence, they have a choice. Would you be willing to do this?

00:23:42
So each person is actually taking responsibility for their experience. It's not. You're not the reason my schema got triggered. My history, and not just history. I think in psychology, in the field, and also on social media, we put a lot of focus on the early childhood environment.

00:24:05
But like you said, our previous relationships still leak into our current relationships. The greater society and our environment are always leaking into our core beliefs, not just what happened to us at four years old. It's continuing to grow and shift our whole lives. And so when we come together as a couple, it's a fine balance of I'm responsible for regulating myself and for helping giving you a map of how you could meet my needs, and you're responsible for giving me your map of how I could meet your needs. And we accept a no and we renegotiate the needs.

00:24:43
And so we find a level of interdependence where you're not responsible for my experience, but you could be a willing participant in helping me feel safer in meeting my needs and us moving towards our values as a couple. That's just absolute brilliance, because this is so useful for any couple at any stage in their relationship, whether you're just starting out or like, why wait until your relationship is so far damaged, for lack of a better word, to do this type of work? Right? Because it's hard to save years and years of damage in a relationship, it's hard to save. The funny thing is that even though it's really hard to save years and years of damage, the irony is that if you decide to end that relationship and you go to another relationship, you're still bringing the same schemas and the same coping behaviors and the same experiences to the next relationship.

00:25:45
And within a matter of time, you're going to be in a very similar dynamic again and again. Doing the work is unavoidable. So what it comes down to is, are you two willing to do that work together, knowing that it is unavoidable work, that you bring a certain part of it to all of your relationships? So, for example, if somebody has a self sacrifice schema and they have a hard time saying no to their partner, and so they say yes to things they don't want to do, then they end up feeling resentful and angry and distant. If you have a hard time saying no to your partner, you probably have a hard time saying no to your boss.

00:26:22
You probably have a hard time saying no to your friends or your children. And so that problem is not just with your partner that those core beliefs and the behaviors you do, we build neuronal connection. So if I feel guilt, my brain goes, just say yes, guilt, yes. Neuronal connection. And now I'm more likely the next time there's guilt to say yes to something I don't want to do to ease and soothe the pain of guilt.

00:26:48
When we're willing to have the guilt, when we're willing to have it there, be really curious about every part of it, then we have a certain freedom. What do I want to do right now? Do I want to be assertive? Do I want to be generous? Do I want to be flexible?

00:27:03
And in those spaces, then it doesn't just help this relationship. It generalizes to all of our relationships.

00:27:13
This has been such an amazing conversation, Dr. Abby, and your wisdom is just off the like. There's not many guests that I have that I'm like, I definitely want to have you back on, but I would love to have you back on so we can just continue this conversation because it's so important. And whether you're in a relationship with someone else or just really the relationship with yourself, I think is just so critical. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with the audience that we haven't talked about before we finish up?

00:27:46
I think something that's on my mind right now is just noticing what happens with social media and the things that are out there. I think psychology is becoming really popular, and so I think it's even more important for psychologists to come out there and inform people and break down any type of misinformation or misconstruing of things. And one thing that I think is important to remember is that a lot of our patterns and relationships are not just from our own family. There's a way in which our micro is impacted by the macro and the larger macro and the larger. When I see the things that are happening politically, when I see the things that are happening in organizations, it's so interesting because it all comes back to the couple, what couples do, really.

00:28:41
You could see it in the macro or you could see it in the micro. And really more and more, I think about how important it is for us as a society to really learn the tools for win win negotiations. If we don't have the tools for win win negotiations. We will continue to have the wars and the power struggles and the bulldozing that we're seeing growing in the world right now because people would rather be right and get their way than take the time to do the work of win win negotiations. But I find it really beautiful that when you have two willing participants, it's almost, I say, 99% of the time you get to a scenario where both people's underlying needs are able to be met.

00:29:29
And I think it's important for us to do in organizations, people are unhappy at work. People are unhappy with our government. People are unhappy with what's happening in the world. It's not any separate than our family unit, because I see the whole world as a family. We are all interconnected.

00:29:47
Yes, I change my relationship with me. I change my relationship with you. If we change our relationship with us, we could change our relationship to work. It's all so deeply interconnected. And so that's some of the stuff that I've been thinking about.

00:30:04
Love it. So such an important conversation. Where can people find out more about you and your books? Yeah, I have the website Bayarea, cbtcenter.com, and then I also have a specific website for online therapy, which is cbtonline.com. And you will also find the schema questionnaire there.

00:30:27
I have a relationship schemas quiz and then also a workplace schemas quiz. And then I have some other questionnaires around relationships and self compassion, procrastination. And then on CBT online, I also have webinars, online courses and information around resources of cognitive behavioral. It. Love it.

00:30:52
Love it. Dr. Abbey, thank you so much. This has been so amazing. And I know that there were so many golden nuggets that the audience can apply to their life today, which is why I love talking to people like you, because it's all about helping raise that vibrational frequency and recognizing that it's a choice.

00:31:12
Right. We have a choice always. Well, thank you. I appreciate your kind words, and it was a pleasure being here, and I'd be happy to be back. All right, fantastic.

00:31:25
We will definitely do that. All right. Thank you for listening, everyone.

00:31:39
What a great conversation. And thank you again for listening today. If you're enjoying the content, please subscribe, like and review. And if you're eager for more content, go to Glow FM Slash happinesssolved and join our exclusive membership portal. I also invite you to follow me on Instagram and Facebook at coach Sandee Sgarlata.

00:31:59
Again, I am so grateful for you and I hope that you and your family are healthy and stay and that your lives are filled with peace, joy and happiness. Take care, everyone.